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Post-structuralism and Primitivism

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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Stevo » Mon May 19, 2003 5:59 pm

I don't doubt that's true, but Zerzan does.
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Steppenwolf » Mon May 19, 2003 6:28 pm

[color=green]"...it is Foucault who abolishes the exclusions of the past and discards the arbitrary constraints of reason, Foucault who reexamines and reconnects aspects of language said to have been irreconcilable, Foucault who reveals the ultimate philosophical irony: truth often lies not so much in scientific method, with its birth perhaps in the Socratic method, but in discourse. Truth, that is, no longer falls within the logical confines of the Socratic method but within the discourse of it, within an analysis of established categories of language, thought, and history</font color=green> <br> <br> <br>The article by Zerzan is rather naive and certainly only a 'general' criticism of the authors he attacks. Basically put, Zerzan may be a good writer on certain issues, but he is no great thinker of philosophy. In the piece above he is actually not correct: Hegel posited the dialectic as the model for reasoning [that Derrida is actually criticising] while Heidegger was the one who firstly started the explicit criticism of scientific methodology to expose truth. Whilst Husserl started it off, it is Heidegger who attacks the 'objective' &amp; 'absolute' claims of science; one of his most specific attacks on technology is within 'Identity &amp; Difference' where he posits the end point of science: the 'Event of appropriation' where scientific labelling- the 'giving of identity to all things' (to the infinite, and as such against most pm thinkers, especially Deleuze) overcomes the actual ability to question &amp; explore 'Sein' (Dasein for us, but hey). <br> <br> <br> <br>I was going to write a specific reply to Zerzan, if I get the time after next week. Basically put, Zerzan is only famous because he was the first. High time for Torrance or others to move the whole thing on. [Basic question, that fucks primitivism: what about the first wave of ecological destrtuction pre agrarian or industrial processess? See chapter 11 of 'The Diversity of Life' or chapter 7 of Ecology:third edition.] Zerzan &amp; others are rather simplistic - much to be expected from the first reactionary position, but they need pushing aside to get to the real issues, &amp; the real 'progressive' movement. <br> <br> <br>Torrance, you up for it? I want to rock n roll, &amp; you seem the chap to get it going. [img]/wwwthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] <br> <br> <br>[edit: sorry, should have said this: realise the piece quoted is not from Zerzan's piece but from a different site, but they expose the same fallicies. Zerzan's mis-use of Deleuze is particularily bad as is his misunderstanding of the Derridian 'other' (something he doesn't mention since I don't think he's actually read any Derrida)~~~ translating the French into English is always a kicker....]
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Morpheus » Mon May 19, 2003 9:37 pm

[color=blue]I don't doubt that's true, but Zerzan does.</font color=blue> <br> <br>Zerzan does not speak for all primitivists. Fredy Perlman and David Watson never said anything about 'abolishing language'. <br> <br>And Steppenwolf, Zerzan isn't the first primitivist. Perlman predates him by years, though he was much less radical then Zerzan.
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Cole » Mon May 19, 2003 10:17 pm

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p> <br>So you're saying that primitivists advocate the absolition of language and time because it stands in the way of Truth, and ps see these things as ways of finding truth. <br><p><hr></blockquote> <br> <br>I don't think so. I think, instead, primitivists are opposed to symbolism because it's said to cause alienation between the symbolizer and that which is being symbolized. The idea is that there would no need to symbolize something externally unless you were detatched from that thing. This is backed up by the fact that art has flourished under the most oppressive societies.
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Cole » Mon May 19, 2003 10:24 pm

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p> <br>Basic question, that fucks primitivism: what about the first wave of ecological destrtuction pre agrarian or industrial processess? See chapter 11 of 'The Diversity of Life' or chapter 7 of Ecology:third edition.<p><hr></blockquote> <br> <br>I just wanted to point out that Zerzan isn't any more concerned with agriculture causing ecologial problems than he is with agriculture causing problems in human society. My understanding of the idea is that, if you create specialized jobs (such as "farmer"), and since people will depend on the work of these specialized jobs, then the holders of the jobs will have some sort of authority.
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Torrance » Tue May 20, 2003 12:25 am

Could we stop using Zerzan as a benchmark for primitivists. I don't even understand his critique of language let alone support it ... though I'd be quite happy to never have to look at a clock face again!
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Steppenwolf » Tue May 20, 2003 3:27 am

To Morpheus, my bad. Redo that to 'the most vocal' [img]/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] <br> <br>To Cole, you're almost accusing Zerzan of being anthropocentric, which if true is rather ironic. <br> <br> <br>I haven't done enough Zerzan obviously. As I said, give me a couple of weeks &amp; I'll have a go at it.
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby DirkRamrod » Tue May 20, 2003 10:22 am

Thanks Cole, that clears it up alot (oh, and I actually read the essay). It's actually pretty understandable. The more Zerzan I read, the more he seems like a (hopeless) Romantic. Maybe that's not such a bad thing...
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Stevo » Tue May 20, 2003 1:24 pm

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>I don't think so. I think, instead, primitivists are opposed to symbolism because it's said to cause alienation between the symbolizer and that which is being symbolized. The idea is that there would no need to symbolize something externally unless you were detatched from that thing. This is backed up by the fact that art has flourished under the most oppressive societies.<p><hr></blockquote> <br> <br>I think you're right Cole. The idea concerning alienation also sounds similar to another movement - the Immediatism of Hakim Bey. <br> <br>And after reading Step's criticism, the more I'm beginning to see wrong with that excerpt I quoted: <br> <br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>Truth, that is, no longer falls within the logical confines of the Socratic method but within the discourse of it, within an analysis of established categories of language, thought, and history<p><hr></blockquote> <br> <br>"Categories of language". That sounds down-right structuralist, the very thing post-structuralism argues against. Isn't post-structuralism about freeing the author from the "categories" the structuralists barred all creativity into and appreciating creativity as an act of the creator alone?
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Cole » Tue May 20, 2003 9:37 pm

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p> <br>To Cole, you're almost accusing Zerzan of being anthropocentric, which if true is rather ironic. <br><p><hr></blockquote> <br> <br>I don't see how I implied that he was anthropocentric. Maybe it's the way I stated it. <br> <br>What I meant was; Zerzan isn't only concerned with agriculture's effects on the environment. He's also concerned with agriculture's effects on human society.
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Re: Post-structuralism and Primitivism

Postby Din » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:02 pm

*bump*
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