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Postby PatheticKammy » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:53 pm

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Postby Morpheus » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:21 am

Worthless crap.
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Postby huntergatherer » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:57 am

Marx bores the fuck out of me, so I can't say I've read it. Of course, the fact that is bores the fuck out of me probably shows my opinion of it as well.
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Postby jacobhaller » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:43 am

Marxian or Marxist?

Either way, the political programs are crap, but the historical theories are interesting, coherent, and sometimes remarkably prescient. The most detailed criticisms of state-socialist political theories aren't found in anarchism - they are hidden in plain sight within the many Marxist works.

If a democratic state is impossible, and a undemocratic state serves its bureaucracy, where does that leave your worker's state, LDB? Was it just deformed, or was it stillborn?
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Postby PatheticKammy » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:12 pm

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Re: Marxism

Postby Edo » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:27 pm

Either way, the political programs are crap, but the historical theories are interesting, coherent, and sometimes remarkably prescient. The most detailed criticisms of state-socialist political theories aren't found in anarchism - they are hidden in plain sight within the many Marxist works.
They're not particularly hidden, it's just that reading them is taboo.

Marx wrote precious little on philosophy, unless you're going to read the Gründrisse under dim lighting (and a lot of other academic work that nobody reads, either inside or out of academia.)

As for his followers, 99% of them are worthless. The other 1% were purely academics, sublated by Marxist orthodoxy, retroactively baptized as pro-anarchists, or some permutation thereof.
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Postby lucky_charms » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:48 pm

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Postby Edo » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:58 pm

I'd question that your friend would never have heard about Marx without Lenin. Remember, before Lenin there was the SPD - who were just as bad.
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Postby lucky_charms » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:03 pm

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Re: Marxism

Postby Guest » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:40 pm

Edo wrote:.As for his followers, 99% of them are worthless.


thats a bit harsh...
louis althusser?herbert marcuse?rosa luxemburg?theo adorno?antonio gramsci?
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Postby jacobhaller » Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:05 pm

C'mon. I'm a former Trot (and not the only one).

I'd say only 80-90% are worthless.
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Postby Zkauba » Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:04 pm

80-90% :) eh?

to be fair i would have to say there is probably a similiar anarchist to crap ratio.
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Postby Morpheus » Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:10 pm

Edo wrote:I'd question that your friend would never have heard about Marx without Lenin. Remember, before Lenin there was the SPD - who were just as bad.


The SPD is in power today. They aren't running around promoting Marx, they don't really consider themselves Marxists and haven't for a long time. Instead they're implementing neoliberal reforms. If it were not for Lenin Marxism would have died after WW1, before it spread into the "third world" and became a global movement. It would be like a whole bunch of other socialist movements that no one remembers. It becomes popular in a handfull of countries for a few decades and then it dies and most people forget about it. How many people read Blanqui, Blanc, Babeuf, Fourier or Owen? Marx would be like them were it not for Lenin.

lucky charms, the SPD is the German Social Democratic party. It is in power in Germany today, in a coalition with the Green party and both are moving the country to the right. A hundred years ago they were revolutionary Marixists, but they abandonded that a long, long time ago.
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Re: Marxism

Postby Edo » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:37 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Edo wrote:As for his followers, 99% of them are worthless.
thats a bit harsh...
I don't want to say that they're all worthless. Maybe only 90% of them are, and 9% of the remainder are nameless and unknown. Is that better?

louis althusser?
Any Marxist who calls for a return to, and I quote, "Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao" is unworth my time. Even if I could justify bothering with a Maoist (who was openly against May '68 from day one), his froth about Marx's "epistemological break" doesn't hold water and his work on "ISAs" was done far less idiotically by Jacques Ellul and the SI. Even academia doesn't care any more; why should I?

herbert marcuse?
Karl Korsch (no hero of mine, incidentally) considered him the most Stalinist of the Frankfurt Schoolers, which after the misfortune of reading him at length I have to agree with as a pretty valid appraisal. As it were, he's also been supplanted by Slavoj Zizek (a worse waste of time - Freud is at least available in English; Lacan might as well be handed down to Slavoj on tablets of gold by the angel Mormon.) Why bother?

rosa luxemburg?
Rosa's been retroactively sanitized and falls into that category of "Marxists it's okay not to hate." (Although I'm not a very big fan of hers; she was the hard-Right of the ultra-Left.)

theo adorno?
Might be worthwhile. (I haven't read Dialectic of Enlightenment yet.) Be that as it may, he showed where he stood when he called the cops during May '68, and his work on the "culture industry" is far inferior to Ellul's. He may be worthwhile as a philosopher (I haven't read his work on music and aesthetics), but as a Marxist philosopher I haven't seen much to steal from him that couldn't be stolen from better sources.

antonio gramsci?
And yet another waste of time. The Prison Notebooks et al. are a basic rehash of Lenin, who at least had the mercy of being concise about what he thought.
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Postby lucky_charms » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:58 pm

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